-- "It can be an incredible life-changing experience ... when you first read about other people who are like you, when you first talk to them online, when you first talk to them on the phone, when you first talk to them in real life ... you're real! You're really there! You really are like me! It's an amazing revelation ... "

-- "Luckily, because of the Internet ... you meet people and realize that it's really not a disorder. It's just a way of life. It's good to know that."

-- "Exactly. Finding out that there were other zoos and speaking with others randomly, some of the most unscrewed up people I've met in my life ..."

-- "There have been a number of, a huge number of new people, who've found out ..."

-- "Around 700."

-- "[Name of a person] is a gentleman who has put up a Web page that deals with zoophilia and related issues and has some stories and facts, frequently asked questions ..."

-- "Web page is much easier to access ..."

-- "You don't have to talk to anyone, it's just there. I had one set up as well and it had, on average, 200 hits a day from all over the world."

-- "[Name of a person] got so many [hits] that he had to take the counter off. The hits to his page were taking up 60 percent of the T-1 line."

-- "I think he said 10,000 ..."

-- "Apparently there's a tremendous amount of interest out there, whether it's all voyeuristic people wanting to get their rocks off, or get slicked out or, get grossed out by it ... but intermingled in the big chunk of people that are, that don't know what it is, and see a casual reference someplace and go look, there are always going to be a few people that are very serious about it, like us, that actually are willing to go out and talk to someone or kind of hang out in the shadows a little bit for a while, read a news group for a while, then get up a little more courage and get on a talker and start talking to a few people there, and then eventually come here and hang with us weirdos."

-- "Yeah, I'm sure for every one of us that's willing to come to a group like this there's probably 40 who would never do it ..."

-- "You have a lot to lose ... if there were really some kind of police set-up, or blackmail. There are so many things that can go wrong ... if you think about how many people could have their careers destroyed ..."

-- "When you think about the 'Net there's kind of an illusion which I bought into for a while. 'Cause when I got on the 'Net two years ago the Net seemed very different then and people seemed a lot smarter. But as AOL and 'Net access becomes easier and more, and you don't have to be smart or a computer whiz to get online anymore, we're really beginning to see that it is a whole cross-section of the population, that it [bestiality] isn't just a phenomenon of smart people or computer geeks or anything like that ... and I'm discovering it's almost disappointing to have this illusion destroyed, that maybe we're all smarter, or a little more creative, but the more I talk to, the more zoos I meet online, the more I discover that we're just people, and run the gamut of what people are like."

-- "Yeah, we were getting a skewed sampling. You know ... a few years ago, everyone on the Internet ... had to be a smart person. You had to know about computers and everything ... I was convinced that zoophiles had a marked tendency to be on the upper scale of intelligence ..."

-- "I know two blacks and three Asians and all of them like to keep quiet."

-- "Drawing parallels with the gay community ... the very first time on there [a chat room called "bearish demons"] I met a black bear person and I asked, 'well, how come there's so few black bears?' and they said, 'Oh, there's plenty of black bears, they just don't talk to you.' 'And why not?' 'Well, because you're white.' And so there's an overlying tendency among ethnic groups to not mix ... so, it's possible that there are blacks out there, but ... they may feel so alienated that ... they're a zoo and we're zoos, but they still can't relate to us."

-- "It's interesting, cause I've gotten to know five African-American zoos because everybody thinks my 'Net name, Black, [means] I'm an African-American ... so I hear from more African-Americans."

-- "I get a similar thing because of the 'Net name I chose ... It's an obviously very ethnic-sounding, very black name ... so I get a lot of black people ..."

-- "I think there's almost an equal number of women, they're just much quieter" [on the Internet].

-- "I think that by and large the case with any woman admitting to any sexual outlet in our society they're treated far more harshly by people than males are. They're not going to fess up to it. They tend to be far more closeted and less willing or able to talk about it than males are."

-- "And being that most of us have known each other through the 'Net ... basically there just aren't that many women out there ... a lot of women get on the 'Net ... and then they get scared off ... it is extremely common on the 'Net for people to ... ask 'I want to watch a woman do it with an animal.' It's so common, it's boring ... I know that I get really offended and really bothered. 'Well, I'll call you if there's an animal that's really sexy ...' None of your damn business! Because they assume that anyone who would do that with an animal has no problem being degraded."

-- "There are more women appearing on the net, and thus are coming to these gatherings -- there are some here. For example, there's Goldie, who's not a zoo at all but just likes hanging around us cause she thinks we're cool ..."

-- "But there's still a lot of women who are there and they don't feel comfortable talking about it ... people will talk in chat mode, but they [women zoos] won't talk in public. They have to be more cautious, and rightly so, because there are a lot of horny males out there online -- 60% droolers and jerks ..."

-- "There are a lot more [women zoos] out there than the sample [group] will indicate. More of us confirm that just from personal e-mail."

-- The woman participant said: "Women drop in [on the Internet] and then they drop back out again. And I think that it's more about that women don't go around talkin' about their sexuality, and about the sex that they have ... most of you guys know no personal, intimate details about my sex life, because I don't share ..."

-- "We think there are a lot more women out there, maybe housewives who get into things with their family pets, that people don't know about ... I think there are a lot of in-the-closet zoo people who are out there, and thinking about the people that don't use the Internet, or never will use the Internet -- there's probably many that we will never know of, because this is so taboo."

-- "We need confirmed studies ... something where research has been done ... we've got to be able to say, 'it's accepted, it exists, and it's real.' And it's not just us trying to fool ourselves ... and another thing that's a common thread that I've seen, this is, we're one of the only groups I've ever seen, as a group, that adamantly refuses to recruit. We don't reach enough people. I have actually gone out of my way to discourage people. If I get the feeling it's just a sexual [fantasy], I will flat out tell them, 'Go buy yourself a sex doll. Go hire a prostitute.' You know, slam bam, thank you. And ... if I get that feeling from somebody, I'll discourage them, because it's not what it's all about. There's more to it than that. It's commitment. It's a worse commitment than a marriage because you can't walk away. They don't understand if you leave them."

-- "And this has been tough for me, because I know I'm going back after a week and a half to dogs that aren't used to seeing me gone ... it's been three years since I've taken a vacation of a week. Other than that, we've been together almost constantly."

-- "I've never been separated from my love for a day ..."

-- "It is certainly worth mentioning that there are just endless numbers of parallels between zoophilia in American society and homosexuals in American society ... we are following exactly the same path, footstep for footstep, of gays, except that we're farther behind ... well, there are stereotypes ... you go back a few decades, all gays were drag queens ..."

-- "Child molesters."

-- "Yeah, there you go, child molesters. I can remember in my childhood in the '70s, I remember reading in Ann Landers: 'I just found out my babysitter is lesbian. Should I fear for my kids' safety?' And certainly, it may be hard for someone who's known us to believe it, but people hear about someone who does things like this and they ..."

-- "For some reason, the image that stereotype ... I seem to hear most often is the notion of a person raping a goat. I don't know what it is about a goat ... for some reason people imagine this drooling maniac, clambering after a fleeing goat ..."

-- "Along the line of stereotypes ... non-zoos online ... immediately assume that because I'm male that I'm a heterosexual zoo. So that if you're male either you're just out there shagging sheep or goats. And I have had a lot of goats ... and it completely escapes them that maybe possibly ... that we're the one in the passive role in this."

-- "A lot of people will say how can you abuse an animal? I mean, an animal doesn't have a choice when you're doing it. Well, getting into the gory details, when I bend over and he goes, he jumps up, it's like ... I'm not holding a gun going, 'you gotta do this'" (laughter).

-- "People will say, 'Yeah, but you're taking advantage of that poor creature. It's just instinct.' And I've yet to have an opportunity to use this reply: What exactly would you call it when human beings do it? It's instinct."

-- "The only thing that I had heard, that was suggested to me during an argument with a non-zoo was that, 'Well, you've obviously perverted the animal for the animal to have any interest in you at all.' And ... the individual said the animal should be put down."

-- "I can vouch for the donkey's virtue (laughter)!"

-- "The ignorance that goes with some of this, this is one thing I would be so bold as to say, exceeds what goes on with the attitudes toward gays. Because the ignorance ... in common attitudes towards zoophilia is funny ..."

-- "Occasionally we still will get scolded in the Internet by someone who's saying "You, crazy people! Don't you realize that, what kind of monstrous mutant creature can come of such an unholy union?'" (laughter).

-- "You go back and break it down into chromosome number and genetics, and say, 'Now if any of us could have had a baby of that nature, we would now be fantastically wealthy and starring on many TV shows.'"

-- "We wouldn't have time -- we'd have so many kids (laughter)!"

-- "It's [having sex with animals] not usual, but it is natural."

-- "It's like saying albinism isn't natural. It's unusual to happen in a lot of species, but it does happen occasionally."

-- "The presentation of bestiality in the media tends to be always very light-handed or, you know, humorous in nature."

-- "I think that one of the reasons for that is because nobody really believes that anybody with any mind at all actually does this. Frequently we see the same thing; people get on the 'Net [and say]: 'Are you guys for real? Are you really doing this? I thought it was just a joke.'"

-- "You get it many times ... they'll either say, 'Got any pictures?' or they'll say, 'Wow, this is really weird.' Or they'll say, 'You guys are all sick!'"

-- "We've become the ultimate fantasy for some people, we're comic relief for some people and some of us are really tired of it. We want to be recognized as a legitimate sexual orientation. That's what we are."

-- "The only time I've ever seen anything presented in the media has been whenever somebody gets in trouble. And it is always the rapists who get it -- the animal rapers ... it is the ones who abuse the animal ... that are most frequently ... who get caught and who people are hearing about ..."

-- "Without exception ... the media will always use the words ... 'sexually assaulted the animal.' Always, every single time."

-- "A zoophile is painted as a bestialist who will eventually become something like a rapist. Will go out and shoot people at McDonald's, a pedophile. Because they're always coming up with studies that say this person just shot 20 people at the local McDonald's used to be a bestialist. Or you know, he's a pedophile, he started out with animals for sexual gratification ..."

-- "Another thing to think about too is groups such as the Humane Society, the SPCA, PETA. Dealing with them, they'd probably like nothing better than to see our heads in a fish tank or on a platter ..."

-- "Their goal is to turn the entire United States and get laws passed that require every personally owned pet to be castrated. Literally. That's their stated goal ..."

-- "There's another aspect of that, too, that's not uncommon for the Humane Society ... in the interest of the animal, they will say, 'The animal has learned to have sex with a human. It can never be rehabilitated as a house pet.' So they kill it. Pure and simple, they kill it."

-- "I think there's also another aspect to it where it's viewed as a little bit more acceptable. It's, oh, one of those things that adolescents do and then you grow out of it. And it's okay when you're young but then, as you get older, suddenly you become a social menace ... I remember waiting through the years I was 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, until I was going to grow out of this phase I was in (laughter)."

-- "Well, I don't know what's wrong with Kinsey's study, but it's the only study I know of ..."

-- "Yeah, Kinsey, that was the part that they had a problem with because that's how he got his data, from interviewing child molesters."

-- "Whenever you see an article about the problems and evils of the Internet, what do they always talk about?"

-- "Bestiality and pedophiles."

-- "One observation I've made is that we consider our animal partners mature adults, which says that it's contact between adults ... basically pedophilia is abhorrent, if not more so than it is to the average person, because of the immaturity involved."

-- "My two horses, for example, I have tried to do ... things sexually with them that they did not like and they told me they didn't like it. I mean ... their ears went back, you know, they were uncomfortable, they fidgeted. Basically, what I'm trying to say is, I tried to be a top with both my horses. My horses don't care for that ... there was a time, years ago, I would admit that I would have just gone ahead with it any ways. The older I got, the more mature and more acceptance I got in what my lifestyle is, I was very sensitive. I became more sensitive to my animal lovers' needs ... I didn't try to do anything, I never tried to do anything to my animals that I'd feel harmed them in any way ..."

-- "Also, the dog has the ultimate way to say no and that's with two rows of very sharp teeth ..."

-- "[When] they're not interested, and it takes an understanding person to not proceed then. Because anyone could proceed, you know ... exert enough force on the animal, but that'd be a bestialist. A zoo would see that the animal did not want to continue and stop. And that can be frustrating, 'cause you're all excited, but it really takes a strong person to say, 'OK, the animal says no,' and if they did continue it would be rape."

-- "The fact that if the animal is really feeling strong about it, they'll be more than merely indicative that they're not overly interested. There's always the matter of, as you say, with a dog, two rows of rather sharp teeth. Horse has a good, a healthy set of choppers and mighty sharp hooves, not to mention it outmatches you by at least four to one, 400 pounds, you know ... I got kicked in the thigh by a ... gelding ... if I'd put my head down he would have clocked me right in the noggin and I would have been brain damaged. Yeah, yeah, I would have been toast ..."

I asked what's the difference between kids and animals when it comes to sex.

-- "Kids are not mature."

-- "For me, it's dealing with, literally dealing with, a mature adult of another species who is my equal. I don't view an animal as inferior, or me as superior to him ... and a kid, any immature adult, be it a kid, an [immature] animal, the mental equipment, the nerve paths, whatever you want to call it, they aren't well enough conformed to make ... a good decision ..."

-- "I agree that animals are, I see an animal as my equal ..."

-- "How can you sexually consider a child to be an informed equal? If they are not capable of making what has been called an informed decision, then, no, they should not be involved in any way whatsoever. Whether they're four or 40."

-- "Back to the Humane Society thing, they like to consider animals as children, for some strange, ungodly reason ..."

-- "As soon as they say that, then we get all flustered ... because it's very difficult to express the fact that children are children, and animals are fucking not kids! OK? They're not human beings ... and people who do make the, and do try and draw an equality there, first of all, it's really, it's offensive in a way that, I consider that to be demeaning to the animal, because that's like saying that it, equating a horse, a stallion, like ... who's a lover of mine, equating him with some kid who doesn't know what the heck is going on ..."

-- "Well, if we also remember, the one reason ... to equate animals as children, children make a wonderful political tool, media weapon ..."

-- "The Humane Society's going to compare animals to children ... I'd like to see how the ... Humane Society would feel about people eating children (laughter)."

-- "... I guess I've gotten a lot more bitter, the longer I've been a vegetarian. I don't know but it's like I, when I see a person eating meat, it's like, not that it just could be my lover, but that was a conscious being that could react the same way we've all been talking about, and experienced love ..."

-- "... It goes back to the assumption that people who have sex with animals are these drooling, mentally, three-hearted people who are idiots and things, no self-control. I was having lunch with a friend of mine and I'm talking about how I'd like to get a job in a horse stable that was in town, and he said, 'Well, are you planning on telling the owner that you have sex with animals?' And I said, 'Well, no!' And he goes, 'Well, you have to!' And I said, 'Why?' And he goes, 'Just warn him that you're having sex with his animals.' And I said, 'What makes you think I'm going to have sex with his animals?'"

-- "There are plenty of male gynecologists in the world who have female patients ... I got fired from my last job in an animal hospital because I was a zoophile. The only sheep that I touched was to put beta dye on it for its surgery. Never did anything sexual to an animal there. And I lost my job because of my sexuality, though I never did anything sexually related."

-- "There's also that whole other issue of, you may be in a stable or other situation with lots of animals around. That doesn't mean that every one of them is attractive to you. I see dogs running all over the place and there are a lot of them that I'm attracted to, but a lot of them are not ..."

-- "... I'm living as an exclusive zoo, my God, almost all my life. As far as explaining, I've already outed myself to my sister, and my God, she sat down and smoked four cigarettes, chain-smoked them. I was like just shaking that whole night. But she understood and said she still loved me, but never to tell my parents. Hani, I made the horrible mistake of printing that article talking about you, asking for volunteers, and lo and behold I was visiting ... and they [my parents] came to clean my house and found it."

-- "Holy shit!"

-- "I'd hate to think what would happen if somebody got into my computer."